WayneWilmeth wrote: And the SQ is pretty good, all channels were cooking, even my rear 6&7.

Hi Wayne,

As you know, I'm a 2.0 guy, like GDHAL. So, I'm curious about what you are hearing from those rear channels. Hall reflections?

Charlie

Hey Charlie, good question!!!!
Hall reflections???? Well, yes, on some discs that is about all you get, worse than that, sometimes you get audience noise.
On the discs mentioned above, I went back to the sides and rear and put my ear to them to see what was playing, I am like you, I want to know. I was surprised how much of the actual music there was, delayed, reverberate and fill in music from a seat not that far from the stage, it would seem.
There are many types of recordings of course, the TACET recordings are famous for putting you right slap in the middle of the musicians, always a smallish, quartet to sextet, where you hear just as if you were one of the players just in the center of the action. That is a highly "unnatural" sound, for me since high school I have not been one of the musicians, and as a trombonist, I was still not in the middle. But it is an intimate and engaging sound.
Some discs like to put you, the listener on the podium, you get the sound just as if you were conducting!!!! I ordered a disc like this and it is still stuck in customs in Bangkok, 7 months now, probably will never get it. Can't even remember at the moment what the title was. BTW, that MIGHT not sound all that unnatural, as I am always conducting on my couch anyway, ha ha!!!!!
Most concert blu rays put you in the audience. I have a wonderful Black Crowes concert where you really "feel and hear" people all around you if you chose to concentrate on them and not the music coming from the front. A you are there sound. Ambient sound to the max.
Britten's War Requiem on blu ray is an amazing surround sound affair. There is an orchestra with a choir behind them up front, another choir at the back of the church, with an organ on the side. When they are all going, you hear them where they are. But if the camera turns around and focuses in on the choir in the rear, then the sound is reversed, the main choir/orchestra is heard behind you (if I remember correctly). HIGHLY recommended fun.
There are many answers to your question, and some are great, some are gimmicky, most are just what ever sounds would come naturally to you in the audience, a few rows back in a great seat. Front LCR are the workhorse speakers in most concerts of course. But even those three, as in the Living Stereo SACDs, is half again better than stereo to me.
My journey with surround sound goes back to the OLD days of (was it Hafler?) wiring a rear speaker out of phase. And then the old Yamaha DSP1 (1985) where they took measurements in different halls, concert locals, etc. and tried to synthesize the surround sound reflections, etc. It has all been more realistic sounding to me than just flat old stereo. And getting MUCH better all the time.
I hope that helps.
God Bless,
Wayne

Wayne, thanks for the detailed description. It's interesting how many different approaches there are to surround. I wouldn't like the "sitting in the middle" approach either. Too distracting. I have a CD that was recorded in surround (listener in the middle), then mixed down to 2 channel, and it sounds bizarre, half the music sounds as if the speakers were hooked up out of phase. I do not like it, Sam I am.

The synthesized hall reverb is probably OK, depending on how well it's done. A lot of those reflections are frequency dependent, so probably pure time delay doesn't quite cut it compared to a recording of the real thing.

In my 2.0 listening room, I get considerable envelopment from the rear and side walls and ceiling. I once tried deadening a room using large fiberglass filled panels. I worked so well that it sounded like those two speakers defined the sides of an open window, like you were listening to a concert through a window. I can tell you THAT was very unnatural, and I didn't like it. So, no anechoic listening rooms for me.

I think my current setup is a good compromise of direct and ambient and avoids the expense and complexity of a surround system. Not quite as real, but way cheaper.

Thanks for the detail. I appreciate the insights you have provided.

Charlie

Charlie and Wayne,

Here is my twist on this topic. I use a Cambridge 2-channel amplifier to drive my T1s Fronts. My Cambridge line outs are connected to my Onkyo 9.2 channel Receiver. The Onkyo drives my T7s Sides and SuperSat 3Cs Rears. I run the Onkyo in a variety of simulation modes, including Dolby II Music, All-channel-stereo, and Orchestra (an Onkyo custom simulation replicating a concert hall).

This setup allows me to separately adjust the volume level of the surround-sound speakers to match whatever setting I have for the Fronts and for whatever music I am playing. Adding the surround channels creates a concert-hall ambiance in my otherwise mostly dead room. Independent volume adjustment aids in balancing the effect without having to reset speaker levels in a setup program. Driving the T1s separately provides higher-quality stereo sound for the primary sound source.

Since all of my music sources are 2-channel, my setup is not the same as Wayne's and is not decoding a multi-channel signal.

One interesting thing I have recently learned is that a true mono source signal (such as an historic mono recording on a CD or a mono transfer by me from a mono LP) will not be correctly reproduced by the Onkyo in any of the Dolby, THX, etc. modes. Mono signals are handled correctly in one of the custom Onkyo simulations (such as Orchestra). I don't know whether or not this is an Onkyo-specific situation or applies to other receivers with Dolby II and similar decoders.

In any event, I am enjoying my setup and I prefer it two straight two-channel listening.

Happy listening,

Art

Well Bro Art, you are like me in this, you like your music coming from more than 2 speakers!!!
Thing is, the modern recordings now have mics placed around to pick up and record discrete channels of music from
natural distances and positions around the recording space. And the great thing about a bit of standardization in the use of surround sound in home theater, ie 5.1 or 7.1, even 7.2.4, etc. has lead to those doing the recording KNOWING where to place the mics to capture the sound and KNOWING where my speakers are gonna be placed in my home theater to play back those discrete channels. So the chances of a great capture and playback are greatly increased these days. Ain't life wonderful!!!!!
Happy listening,
God Bless,
Wayne

Yes, Wayne, I do prefer the sound of my "multi-channel" audio setup -- not to mention wanting to employ my Triton Sevens and SuperSat 3Cs while listening to music.

However, all of my music emanates from a 2-channel source, so I am probably missing the true multi-channel experience to which you refer. A funny thing for me is that most of the live music I experience is from within the middle of the performing group rather than from someplace in the middle of the hall.

My Triton Ones provide a wonderful musical experience in their role as my primary speakers. I do wonder what it would be like to experience the References in my setup - but, my musings will need to remain just musings.

As for my 2-channel limitation, it is entirely self-imposed. I made the decision to transfer all of my music into FLAC files and I have not regretted that decision at all. Being able to access my entire collection instantly and in a multiplicity of ways, plus the total portability of my music far outweigh the limitations of 2-channel sound for me.

Happy listening indeed!

Art